Hank [BS/MSEE,
MSM $$$, Ph.D. Mgmt] teaches Max Showalter reported in yesterday’s Journal & Courier (p. C12) on a kit manufactured by Flex Fuel International that a local firm, Bartlett Ford just up the road north of Purdue about 10 miles in Brookston, is now selling and installing . Installed prices are $695 for 4 & 6 cylinders vehicles, and $795 for V-8’s. But that’s not the story. Bartlett installed the kit on a 236,000 mile Ford Windstar minivan and kept records.
- On “normal” gas - 22.8 MPG
- On 50-50 blend of gas and ethanol, called E-50 - 20.4 MPG
- On E-85 - 18.1 MPG.
Ok, so going from “normal” gas to E85 reduces fuel economy by 20.6% [(22.8-18.1)/22.8]. Using this as a benchmark, if regular 87 octane gas is $4.00 a gallon, we should be willing to pay about 80% or $3.20 a gallon for E85. If E85 is less than this, it is “cheaper” to use E85. Yesterday, E85 was selling for $2.99/gallon on SR38 on the East side of Lafayette, and 87 octane was $4.04. E85 wins, since $3.20 > $2.99. In this case, you’re saving $0.21/gal.
Now you have to figure the payback, i.e, how long will it take to recoup $695 + tax = $743.65. Let’s assume you drive 10,000 miles/year. 10,000 mi/18.1mpg = 553 gals of E85. Let’s say you’re saving $.20/gal by using E85, so $.20 X 553 = $110.60 you’ve saved in one year. Ok, you invested $743.65, and this divided by your yearly saving of $110.6 = 6.72 years before you really start saving anything. I don’t know about you, but too many things can change too much in almost 7 years. I pass.
Bartlett’s phone # is (765) 563-3127. Flex Fuel’s YouTube ad is below. Hank
Sounds like an interesting idea even if it isn’t necassarily cost effective. I’m sure there are plenty of people who won’t go through the actual math and purchase it thinking they’ll save money right away from it.
Gasoline will probably get cheaper once oil companies decide that alternative fuels are taking up too much of the market. That will probably happen in less than seven years, so this ethanol idea is definitely not cost effective.
I like the idea of fuel savers- I drive a 2500HD truck with a 6.0 liter big block V8. Right now I am getting a little less than 10 MPG in town - the best I have ever gotten was 15MPG highway. Any ideas on filters or additives?
I must say this sounds like a great idea. Granted, I probably would not do the math before hand and find out if it’s really worth it, but I would possibly give it a try. However, I don’t have a vehicle right now, so I’m saving TONS of fuel already!
I agree with the previous posts. The use of ethanol fuel sounds like a great idea in theory. However, 6 years is a long time to see an “investment,” in a depreciating car mature. On the other hand, this kit is great for anyone purchasing the kit in efforts to help the environment and purchase an American-made fuel.
I like how the comercial capatilized on the idea that once you get the kit installed in your Hummer, you can drive it 24/7. I belive that this is a great technology for larger vehicals that have terrible gas mileage, and are driven alot.
at first glance it looks awesome and I would want to get in on it. But after seeing how long it would take to break even makes it less attractive. If the installation were cheaper, i think it would really gain a lot of people to get in on it- then if they do, they would become a big competitor with the oil companies so gas prices would probably drop to stay in competition..so its a win/win? except youre helping save the environment with E85?
or at least thats how i understand all of that
How much is Premium going for out there? If reg is 4, premium has to be around 450. if thats at all correct then it would save you $387.10 annually, and take less than two years to pay off. So if you are putting premium in your car then it may not be a bad investment.
I am about to drop 2k worth of parts and computers into my 1985 Mercedes to boost mpg by about 5-10 and power by about 10%. However, this system could be retuned (just a software update) to run E85, but probably will not.
Jim
I would also pass on this kit. Even IF I do end up using the car long enough to make back the money I used on the kit, I would feel insecure about the car. What if it stops working when you are driving? or What if something goes wrong?
To me, this is nothing more than just an expensive “toy”.
If I am wealthy enough that I can just buy 1 car to play around with, I may try it. But other for now. I pass.
I agree with Rocco’s post earlier, I think that he hit it dead on when he said that the industry is being taken up by alternate fuel sources, and in the end this will lead the prices of gasoline ultimately lower. Although you do save money with E85, I feel like it is a hassle to equip a car with an engine that uses it, and less cost efficient. Somehow I dont think that this investment would pay off, and if it does, how great would the returns and benefits be? I dont know a whole lot about the engineering behind engines, but that is definatley one thing I would leave to the professionals. Also I feel as though buying a hybrid would be the best way to save money, if you were trying to be economical. This seems like using a bandaid to fix a cracking dam- doesnt seem like its going to fix the problem.
I do not think that I would end up buying this kit. I doubt that I would seriously end up using the car and i dont think that i would make up the money i spent for buying the car in gas. I do not have a problem with paying 4.20/etc for gas, not that I wouldn’t like to see it go down. In terms of going green, I feel that a hybrid would probably be a better option.
I think this is a really good way of saving money for gas. But I agree, It’s too much of an invest to make if you wouldn’t even start seeing savings for 7 years. By the time this would start saving you money there could be a better idea on the market.
Yeah, this lost my investment when you said that ethanol resulted in a loss of fuel economy. While I may save money on gas, the tank for my old car was pretty small which means that I’d be filling it up more often. Plus, just like Hank said, assuming I only drive 100,000 miles a year, my savings is only about ~$110. While its a really great idea, I’ll have to pass as well.
I think it is great that they have come up with a more eco-friendly fuel, but the fact that you have to buy a kit is a little less appealing. People are on the go, they don’t want to have to install a kit just to possibly be saving money in the future. It’s a good idea, but I think it would be better if they created a fuel that was usable by all vehicles without needing a kit.
I would also pass on this type of idea. Sure its more eco-friendly but there isnt much of a benefit for a lot of consumers. You would have to get the kit installed which would take time and money, plus lets you like to travel. You may not find an E-85 gas station along the way which wouldnt benefit you at all. Plus it would take 7 years to break even? Most people would probably have a new car by then anyways if they are driving 100k a year.
This idea is great if you want to be environment friendly but other than that I believe it is a lost cause. I dont believe this a solid enough idea to stand on and the upside to saving money with this kit isnt that great but as people who have posted before me said some people will over look the financial side of things and veiw this kit as just a great idea and buy it and think they are saving money.
I would pass too. Its not enough of a pay off to buy the kit when in seven years there will be a better more efficient way to save money on gas. But like everyone else has said, they deserve some credit for being more eco-friendly.
I think this is a pretty good idea! Whether cost effective or not becuase of changing oil prices, etc. this idea will help the ‘eco-friendly’ campaigns! I would buy one of these kits just to save some fuel and if possible save some money…! This kit could be used effeciently in gas guzzlers. As the national ethanol vehicle coalition says - This is a step towards improving the Environment, Energy Security and the Economy.
Anything to get a couple of extra MPG out of your ride nowadays. Oil prices varey so much that there is no sure way to truley diagnose the best method for saving at the pump. The guy with the 2500HD asking how to get better MPG: do a diesel to vegitable oil conversion.
If we could figure out a way to make the E85 run more efficiently then, this would be a decent idea but a $700 to $800 investment is extremely pricey for most people. I agree that I would have to pass on this as well. If they ever find a way to make these conversion kits cheaper count me in!
I wouldn’t jump onto this idea. The return on your investment takes way too long, and I have a feeling ethanol will be gonzo in 7 years; its total impracticality is started to become known by the general American population. Just saying Ethanol doesn’t/won’t work well at all soon, when most of Americans understand the fallacy in using ethanol.
In my opinion the kits are too pricey, but they are heading in the right direction. If i had the money to invest in the new kit i would probably do so, but at this point i don’t have the urge to spend $700 even if it means i might save some money in the long run.
Maybe seven years from now, our technological capabilities will increase to produce the “effective” materials we need to make an ethanol powered car efficient. Right now it sounds like a good idea to save a few cents, but Hank is right-a lot can happen in seven years. In the end, they have the right idea, but they just need the correct research and development to establish a steady market.
I also agree with Hank. I would not buy this product due to the fact that it would take a long time for it to actually save me money. I do drive a lot, but I still don’t like the idea of a 600 dollar investment that i won’t see a return on for a good number of YEARS. If there were an immediate gain from this technology I think more people would be on board, until that time count me and many other people out.
E-85. The sole reason to use it, in my opinion is for environmental conservation only. It provides no real tangible benefits to standard gas right now. In 7 years, we can hope for working and fairly affordable fuel cell cars.
It’s obvious we need to do something! It may take awhile to pan out all these changes - after all it is extremely hard for everyone to adjust and I think that is the real issue here. We all know it needs to happen and will come people are just prolonging it. But it is nice to hear that someone is actually considering other alternatives.
Its very clear that the American people have to stop dancing around the idea of alternative fuels, and whole heartedly dive into it. Brazil did this, and their fuel prices are down below a dollar per gallon. But at what price? They have cut down vast amounts of their rainforest to grow sugarcane for the sole purpose of making ethanol. The difference between us and them is pretty clear to me. They sacrificed their rainforest so they could be energy independent, and they overhauled their entire infrastructure to support pure ethanol driving. This is ultimately impractical for Americans to do. Because we aren’t going to uproot millions of acres of farmland to plant switchgrass for fuel. For a couple of reasons, 1) too many countries are depending on the food we grow here, and if we stop growing a surplus of food; world food prices will go up. 2) There is no way any of that will get past congress.
What we could do is drill in ANWR. Venezuela is energy independent, and their gas prices are down to under 50 cents per gallon. And why is this? Because they are willing to tap domestic oil reserves. I’m not saying if we drill in ANWR that it’ll drop our prices that low, or that it is a permanent fix, but until America is willing to whole-heartedly jump on the alternative fuel train, we still need oil to run. And there are two places to get that, the middle east, and ANWR.
Also, for the United States to adapt anything, it takes a very long time. For example, look how long it’s taking for us to adapt the digital TV signal box. Congress gave Americans over 2 years to go out and buy a little 50 dollar box o go on top of your TV. And this doesn’t apply to the vast majority of Americans that are getting cable and satellite, just a small minority that still uses the rabbit ears. Now imagine how long it will take for every car to get converted to ethanol, or some other alternative fuel. Decades. Atleast. So yes, we still need oil, and even if the return will take ten years, we will still need it then too.
The bill to drill ANWR came up before, across the desk of Bill Clinton, and he said that it wasn’t necessary to drill there, because we wouldn’t see any oil out of it for ten years. Well ten years later, you get the point. Lets stop worrying about inefficient alternative fuels for now, and quench our thirst with the only thing that can oil.
Wow, that was a lot. My fingers are tired.
I would definitely pass on this product. Its literally a waste of money and ethanol has actually been found to be more corrosive and will wear down engine parts quicker. you’re basically giving someone money that just makes your car run on something different but doesn’t benefit you or the car. If they’re gonna do that they might as well make it run off of something way cooler like maple syrup or chewing gum or even those little crusties you get in the corners of your eyes when you wake up in the morning.
So what if the math comes out a little unfavorable. I think it is absurd that Americans are so stubborn to fix this energy crisis because of a few dollars. It is a difficult commitment for America to completely switch over to ethanol but it can be done slowly. If people ignored the little bit of money they would be losing on this product for the sake of our country and our environment it would soon work to our advantage. The demand for ethanol rises and the demand for oil decreases, thus lowering the price of ethanol for all. It may take some government interference, but it needs to happen.
The attempt of this gas efficiency for the environment seem very appealing but the kit would be a major draw back. If someone could create a service for installing the kit for free, I bet a lot of people will reconcider this product.
This is a great idea, but if it takes seven years until one sees actual savings, then it’s not so beneficial. In seven years the technology behind ethanol fuel may be improved tenfold.
I think it is a great idea but it is not necessarily going to save you allot of money right away. It is definitely going to be a hit for those environmentalists out there because they will not let a product like this go to waste. In the American public’s mind, it is a nice product but most people will not go out of their way to get it installed.
I really don’t think buying this kit is worth it. It is way to over priced and I don’t think you would get your money out of it. If I was drving a gas hog car then maybe I would. But as of right now I don’t even have a bike!
Wow that was some really smart math there. Taking into consideration it takes to pay off the product is actually something a lot of people overlook. Usually it’s just “Hey I’m paying 20 cents less per gallon! Let’s buy it!”
But yes, I agree with you Hank, I don’t think this is is a wise investment. E85’s lower cost and lower mileage aren’t really an advantage to the everyday consumer.
Hank,, Nice maths…
I like that kit and if some asked me to invest in that, I would have grabbed that opportunity. That car is cash saving and more importantly gasoline saving. We are switching on different methods to run our vehicles. I love driving SUV’z and Bikes. Yeah, Hank, I too race…
I just wish some discover something for bikes too… Right now, its highly priced as it is one of very few in its kind.. So, It will ask for price. Once the demand is more, people will start making and using such new ideas and the price would come down. Its like a Long-term Investment…
The question is, how do they get the E85? I believe most of the ethanol is gotten through corn. Here in Indiana I would bet the E85 is cheap, because there is an abundance of corn. But how will that affect corn prices around the world? Will farmers continue to plant corn for fuel instead of wheat for humans?
I think plug in hybrids or electric cars are still the way to go. It is much cheaper and easier/more efficient to produce electricity. (Through coal, solar, even producing electricity with Oil at a large plant is much more efficient than producing the energy in each individual motor)
From a environmental point of view, E85 is great. Major gas guzzling cars like SUV or Hummers should get this kit to get better mileage. Good for long term, but not short term. I would not get this kit due to the fact that i will not be keeping a car for that long for the investment to uphold.
The other thing people need to consider when putting this kit in the car is to think about how long you are even going to keep the vehicle. Don’t forget to take in account your driving record. If you get in a ton of accidents, the last thing you would want to do is put a kit into the car and hope you can make it 7 years without one.
To Sunxiaochen- how in the world is E85 great environmentally?
The way it is made currently is mainly through corn. (It is cheap because of the government’s corn subsidies)
Studies are now showing that it actually might be worse for the environment to produce corn for use in cars vs using gas due to all the pesticides, water, etc. used in growing the corn. Do your research.
On top of that the corn subsidies cost tax payer’s money. And the subsidies give farmers an incentive to replace wheat fields with corn, affecting the worlds food supply. Not to mention the demand of corn is raised, so the price for corn for other uses goes up.
I think that Americans need to invest in other strategies along with E85 and Biodiesel in order to make a difference in our energy crisis. #1 we need to invest in strategies that have production here in the U.S. and not abroad. #2 is the fact that we need to have investments in Nuclear Energy, Wind Energy, Hydroelectric Energy, and Geothermal Energy in order to cure up potential power supply problems. #3 is that we need to be able to make the regulation and government red tape in these situations be less interfering. If we follow these small steps then we will make significant strides in the energy crisis.
I think its a good idea, just to expensive. I understand that everyone is looking for fuel efficiency right noe because gas prices are so high but I really don’t think this is going to last forever. I just don’t feel like people will ever really get there moneys worth out of this.
A big lie and I always thought you saved gas milage using ethanol blended fuel. I have lost respect for this concept.